Learn how this Resilient Coder succeededdespite the odds of being undocumented. Rizel went from college dropout to IT professional to full-time developer by asking questions.
https://twitter.com/blackgirlbytes
https://leonnoel.com/100devs/
81 - 4:6:21, 8.13 AM
bdougie: [00:00:00] Episode 83 of this developing story.
What's up. Y'all, it's be Douggie back again with another episode. Look at this one after the other week after week coming back with this podcast and yeah, it's feeling good. So today's guest is Roselle resolves. Scarlet Rozelle has actually taken a new role to work on my team. Actually I didn't mention this on the actual podcast, but it's wild.
If you go to episode one, two and three here to beginning of my story and how I became a developer. I would've never imagined today. I'd be telling you that I'm the director of developer advocacy at get hub. It's kinda mind blowing, but yeah, that's where I'm at. I am super pleased and honored to be able to lead a team of advocates at GitHub and getting folks engaged into our platform and checking out some of our latest and greatest features.
So that's my role today. Except an offer will be starting in the next couple of weeks. And I invited her to come and chat about her background, her [00:01:00] story. A lot of the story actually didn't even come up in the interview process. So I'm super pleased to hear more about my colleague and understand Where she came from, how she got to where she's at.
And yeah, I don't know what else to say, because I think it's an awesome story. So I hope you enjoy and also reminder if you want to be on this Twitter spaces once a week just hit the follow button on twitter.com/ and you'll get notified when I go live in a space, usually on Wednesdays at lunchtime PST.
All right. Without that.
Rizel: Awesome. So meetings. And I'm a software engineer. I've been a software engineer for like almost three years. And I'm going to be a developer advocate with you. I get
bdougie: home. Yes. This is true. All facts for sure. And I'm super excited about this. You start in a couple of weeks and I'm curious w we probably won't spend too much time of what you're going to, what you're working on today.
Because you're in transition going to be working at GitHub. Yeah. But I guess I'd probably ask what are you [00:02:00] excited about? The role at get hub? Yeah,
Rizel: I feel like I'm excited about the fact that I can get. And empower other engineers and get them more excited about coding. I feel like there's a lot to explore and get hub.
And when I first started out as a software engineer, I tried to avoid get hope as much as possible. But now that I realized like how cool it is and how much I can do through GitHub I definitely want to make more people. Get a chance to dive in there. And then in addition to that, I felt like I have a lot of skills in terms of like community building and like on writing and content creation that I left dormant for awhile.
So I'm like excited to tap back into those skills.
bdougie: Yeah. Can we talk about that too as well? What were you done before you. Started learning how to code? What sort of pushy towards eventually learning how to code getting an engineering role?
Rizel: Yeah. That's a long story, but I can try to make it short
bdougie: the whole hour.
Feel free to take as much time as you'd like. [00:03:00] Cool.
Rizel: All right. So basically I had started. Studying psychology in college. But I was only able to stay there for one semester. Part of it was because my family didn't have money to help me pay. And then the other part of it was that at the time I was undocumented and like back in 20 12, 20 13, People didn't have as much like awareness and like a lot of times now, like there's a lot of activism about like undocumented students and stuff like that.
Back then people were more like making jokes about it. So there was just not like a lot of options in terms of like financial aid for me. Cause like undocumented students don't receive federal financial aid. You can't get like federal loans and you also can't like work. So there was really no options for me to do work study and be able to go to college.
So I had done a fundraiser and got enough money for the first semester. And I got a private scholarship, but like after the first semester was over, they were like, okay, we need money for the second semester. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to have to head out because. [00:04:00] Impossible. So I essentially went back home and I was like bored, cause all my friends were either in college or working.
And luckily for me the Obama administration like came out with this thing called DACA, which stands for deferred action for childhood obesity. And basically what DACA did was allowed me to be able to work legally, get a social security number and be able to drive and stuff like that.
So I was like, finally, I can get my youth back again. So yeah, I applied for that. It costs it a lot of money. And while I was waiting for it to be approved, I started to. Research and be like, okay, what can I do? Oh, by the way, like the DACA thing only lasts for two years. You got to renew it every two years and get me to renew it.
So I was like, what can I like study that will span the two years for me. And I'll still be able to come out with a good job and not need to be there for four years. So I did a lot of research and I figured out that like [00:05:00] tech would be an option for me. But I still needed money for college.
So when I got approved for DACA, I started working and I worked at three jobs at the same time. I worked at like planet fitness H and M and this nonprofit organization. And then once I finally got enough money for college, I started going there. I went to community college for it. Yeah. Yeah. So I it's a crazy not like a linear path, but yeah, I started studying.
bdougie: Can I ask too as well? Like the Zubin back you said you went back home where was home at this point? And also, can you talk more about the year, your undocumented status and like your background? Folks might not, I don't know how many folks here know you who are in the the stream itself, but yeah.
Can you talk more about like where your family derives from and everything like that?
Rizel: That's a good point. Yeah. I live in Boston and I've lived in Boston for most of my life. But I was born in Antigua in the Caribbean and my parents were born in Ghana. So they came over here like legally by [00:06:00] plane.
But they were really young and they didn't realize there's like a bunch of things you have to sign to be able to get permanent residency. So they like came here to help me get a better life. But it ended up not being this perfect American dream that they had imagined. So yeah, I ended up being undocumented and it didn't affect me that much up until college when it was like, okay, it's time for.
You to get federal financial aid and get a job and
bdougie: stuff like that. Yeah. He had mentioned that before. That's gotta be quite a I don't know if a life lessons or, cause I know when I started applying for colleges and like I'm American born here and all of this stuff, but I'd mentioned maybe I mentioned this previously on a conversation.
My mom was actually born in Cuba, so also in the Caribbean and, but my grandpa was in the military. So like we didn't go through all the whole undocumented process and stuff like that. And. I am second generation American. So not as much of a correlation, but I do have a lot of family members who have very similar backgrounds and issues when [00:07:00] it comes to getting into school and stuff like that.
Yeah. Can we touch on your it degree though? At community college. So what specifically did you learn when you went to community college? Yeah
Rizel: I guess I specifically studied computer information systems and at the community college, it was like a mixture of it stuff and like business admin stuff.
So I like learned the counting randomly. And then I also learned it's random classes, like
bdougie: soft stuff.
Rizel: Yeah. And then I also learned. A little bit of visual basic and it problem solving. So I don't know, I feel like the classes weren't that relevant to the actual job, but I at least felt like I was like doing something and moving forward.
So yeah, when I was at bunker hill, everybody bunker hill was the community college I was at. They were really at the time emphasizing getting internships So I decided to look into it cause I was like, okay, cool. This is a way I can learn and get paid at the same time. And I don't have to work at planet [00:08:00] fitness and H and M and everything all at the same time it's going to school.
So I applied for an internship at a company called federal home loan bank of Boston. And that's when I started working in it and I told the manager, I was like, honestly, I don't feel like I know anything. But I'm happy to learn. And I was like really surprised that he like hired me off of me saying that.
But he did. And it wasn't good experience. They really made me feel. I belong there and they made me feel like I was a regular employee. They like gave me awards and stuff like that. They were like, oh, best employee or no. Oh my gosh. So cool. Cause was like maybe 20 or 19 or something like that.
So I, that really pushed me and made me feel like it gave me a confidence I needed to continue pursuing tech. Cause initially. Not sure if I should do it. Cause I was definitely more stronger and English classes, I'm like history and stuff like that. Not like math stuff or anything techie.[00:09:00]
But yeah, that, that kind of What's the word. I don't know. It
bdougie: motivated me that persona of being able to admit that you're still learning. It's like a persona. And the thing I love about being a developer advocate is I literally just had a tweet today where I was talking about cause I just saw the problem that I, it took me six months to solve it.
For context, I'm like shipping a new update to stars. I get hub.com and I've been working on this for six months. And mainly because my day-to-day role doesn't really involve maintaining and shipping features on github.com. So I had to go through a lot of different changes and engineering, and then also.
Error messages I'd never seen because Kubernetes was involved. So long story short, I ended up fixing it this morning and I had so many tabs open and so many notes of this problem I was trying to solve. And so many slack messages to engineers of Hey, I have no idea what I'm doing.
What do you think about this error message? Like how can we get unstuck here or how can you get me on stock? And being able to like, Freely that I had no idea what I was doing helped me get [00:10:00] closer towards answer faster than the weeks I spent this sort of massaging the same error message and trying to figure out if this would do something like that, there'll be something different.
Rizel: It's really a humbling experience admitting that you don't know something. Cause it's like everybody wants to, feel like they know it. But like you said, it's a much easier experience when you're like, Hey, I need help. And it's just a good learning experience overall.
bdougie: No, I wanted to. So you're doing ITE.
You have your community college degree. Thanks to. The Obama administration allowing you to go through school. And do you, like you had a plan? It seems like he came on out of the other side of that plan with the role. I'm curious, where does engineering come into place? So you already mentioned that math and all that other stuff was not as of interest to you or you didn't feel like you excelled in that area.
So like what, what made you want to learn how to code, but then also, how did you get to the point where you did learn.
Rizel: Yeah. That's a good question. Yeah, so I was working with mean it, and then [00:11:00] after that I started working at HubSpot and it through hack diversity. And that's when I got exposed to a lot of coding terminology.
Everybody kept talking about APRs and I was like, what the heck is APM?
bdougie: Can you explain a hack diversity though?
Rizel: What is that diversity? There's an organization in the new England area that helps black and brown students work at cutting edge companies in Boston, and I liked working at federal home loan bank of Boston, but I saw that hack diversity's partner was HubSpot and I was like, I really want to work at HubSpot and challenge myself more.
So they helped me get there.
bdougie: Okay, cool. So you're there at HubSpot. And then what was the, what's the rest of the story there?
Rizel: Yeah. So I'm there HubSpot doing it. People are like talking about code. They keep saying the word API. And I decided to like, just ask people about their journeys.
And I met one guy that was like, yeah, I never even got a degree. And I'm an engineer. And I was like, what? Like [00:12:00] I could skip the whole math thing and they're like, yeah, like totally possible. So I tried to self-teach myself. But that was not working for me. Like I'm very impressed by people who teach themselves how to code.
So then I decided to go to a coding boot camp and I like Googled and all these coding boot camps for $17,000. But I found one called the resilient quarters, which was. And I can explain resilient coders. Resigning coders is like a coding boot camp for black and brown youth over 18 in the Boston area.
And I think they expanded to Philadelphia as well. But yeah, they basically teach you like full stack web development, the teacher, or I guess the managing director there, Leon Noel, he also teaches at 100 devs and he also teaches at general itself. So I like signed up for that and I told my boyfriend at the time, who's now my husband, I was like, oh my God come learn [00:13:00] to code with me.
I really want to learn. And you keep saying you didn't really like your job. And my boyfriend was like, yeah, I don't know about he's way more cautious. So he was like, yeah, I don't know about this. What's like the chances that we will like actually become software engineer and you, we can't just quit our jobs and like having no money.
So I thought like that it was a good point. So we like compromised and decided to save our money first and then join. So I ended up joining the cohort after I learned to I learned JavaScript, react, no CSS and all that from resilient coders. And after that, Went from there became a software engineer and been working
bdougie: ever since.
And I've been following Leon's work for probably since I've was aware of him earlier this year, he does a really awesome livestream. I don't know what the cadence is, but he tends to bring in a ton of folks, entry-level folks to not even TRO interested folks to getting in the code.
So whether they're part of resilient coders and the alumni network or this folks who are just trying to see if. [00:14:00] What they want to get started with. So I highly recommend I'll try to I'll try to figure that out and share a link to his profile. If I can do that in the space, or if not, I do want to mention that this conversation will be recorded right now.
So our conversation between me and Rozelle, we're gonna put it up on the disc, developing story.com. Podcast URL. And then if anybody wants to have ask questions to share part of their story, we'll ask questions that won't be recorded at the end. So yeah, feel free to request and I'll get you up here.
Rizel: Share some links with you to about a hundred dubs. If people want to do it.
bdougie: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing too as well. From my purview and where I sit as a working, I get hub, but also just been I've been in the industry specifically as an engineer since 2013.
And I come across so many people who are just really intrigued and interested about how to get started, learning how to code. Are the tools and resources and it's amazing how much stuff out there is free and how much stuff is available to folks. And it's now at the point where it's just it might be too much stuff [00:15:00] that it's hard to digest and figure out where's the best place to get started.
Because I think similar to your now husband, who is reservation like what are the chances of you starting the day, like with the free code camp or with the resilient coders or. With a bunch of Codeacademy lessons in getting at the other end of it. And I think, I don't know what the percentage is for people who come out the other side and are successful, but I'm always happy to pitch it and help out folks.
Yeah, same
Rizel: I'm free everything. I feel like all education should be free cause like why, like why hold onto that power for people? Or keep it away from people. Yeah, it is a lot of different options out there, but I say as long as you're like pushy, and ambitious, like you're gonna like land where you need to be like, even at, to me, even if the bootcamp's not that good, like you can just push yourself and be like, okay.
I learned like the basics that I'm, that I needed to learn, like where can I go from here? And try to put yourself out
bdougie: there. One of the things you mentioned early in the [00:16:00] conversation is around just having some sort of forward motion. So when you did your first year of psychology degree and then you needed to figure out what was next after you found out there was no money to continue your education.
You'd mentioned the term about just having forward motion. When it comes to learning how to code, a lot of folks will just get stuck. Like I guess the term is analysis paralysis, which is should I learn Java script? Should I roll in Ruby? Should I do front end? Should I do backend? And the answer is yes.
Like you shouldn't. Learn something. And then the chief, he can apply that knowledge as quickly as possible, because I think what the bootcamp grad experience, the self-taught learner experience, you have to show that you could do something. Cause that's usually the competitive edge you can have as a bootcamp grad or a self-learner is that you have forward motion always.
And it's less about, I think there's. It's valuable to know, how to traverse a binary tree and do this sort of computer science problems and questions, because that will take you further. I want to say further, but it's gonna take you, it's [00:17:00] going to get you forward process as well or forward progress.
But I think there's no wrong entry point at this point when it comes to tech,
Rizel: it's not, I agree with you and. It's so funny because I also want to like, be you afterwards. Like I went to college after, cause I wanted to get my degree. Yeah. And I felt I was like, oh my gosh, I don't know data structures.
And everybody knows them. And I'm like struggling to teach myself though. So I went to college, but I found it so funny because a lot of my classmates they were like people, it was like evening classes. So it was a lot of people who already had careers, but they were like people who were like very nervous.
They wouldn't be able to do their jobs. Cause we only learned like the medical stuff and I just thought it was so funny. Cause I was like, oh my gosh. At my bootcamp, people are nervous that they can't do their jobs because they didn't go to college. And my classmates were like, oh my gosh, I should have went to boot camp just like you.
And I'm like, that makes no sense.
bdougie: It goes to show that I don't think any of us know what we're really doing [00:18:00] and. Going back to the thing you mentioned when he got the first it job and you like presented yourself as I don't have all the answers, but I'm willing to learn. I think that attitude is what got you through the degree, the bootcamp getting the job, because I know folks who come into interviews and they have a lot of Hebrews at to the point where they just they think they know everything.
So like you say, oh, you know what where do you use Python three in this? And it's oh yeah, sure. That, what that does and how to use it. And then where do you leverage this library? It's oh, cool. I know exactly what that is. And then it turns out they don't know what they're talking about or they haven't, they don't have the experience.
And it's much better to say, okay I've never heard of this library in Python, but you know what I know how to search stack overflow, and I also know how to search source code. So if I needed to actually figure out if something's broken or something's not set up properly, like I, I can search.
And actually what happened to me last night, I was working on this project on open sauce that I've been working on for way too long. I have a bad habit of working on [00:19:00] actual issues or features for months, especially in open source. And it's mainly because it's all free time. So I ran into this issue.
Where I was trying to grab a certain data from a library. And I opened up the issue and then one of the library maintainers because of the, where I sit folks follow me on GitHub and stuff like that, they jumped into my issue and was like, ah, it should actually be this. And I was like, Thanks.
And if I didn't actually attempt to solve the problem and then ship something last night, I wouldn't have got that response from the maintainer and say, Hey, you did it wrong. And it just happened to be that I put myself out there and I had something that was broken out there in production that I could actually get, I can get the sort of benefit of answers on an up issue.
Rizel: Yeah. I'm totally an advocate for that. Cause I've seen that it's helped me so much. There, there have been times where yeah. Not said anything and just tried to do it on my own and it always backfires. So I'm like, I always like to at least attempt to try and then be like, Hey, here's what I got. I need [00:20:00] help because if not, like I'm just going to be stuck and there's really no
bdougie: point.
Yeah. Yeah. And that's something that and I have to redo this YouTube video cause it was a poorly performing YouTube video I created. But I learned a trick early on in like my second developer. Where, if you PR early if you open up a poor request early it's the best way to get feedback as soon as possible and get unstuck quicker.
And it's something that I actually learned that GitHub did before I joined GitHub as an employee that they would open. As soon as you start a feature, you open up the pull request. Like day one and you're like, this is my first day of working on this. It's not, it's like a work in progress, pull requests.
And what that does, it actually shows your other coworkers, your teammates, Hey, Brian's touching this part of the code base. Maybe I should jump in and answer questions or, Hey, we're touching the same stuff. Maybe we should like, keep an eye on each other's pull requests to make sure like we're benefiting from the work.
Asynchronously. And so I did that. And then the other thing I used to do in the poor request, I'd write out my [00:21:00] hypothesis of Hey, I don't know how to solve this problem, my first crack at it is going to be this. And this is my approach. And I did a little bit of research. This is the library I might use, or this is the test I might write.
And. That always gave me way more feedback while building the feature at the point where even though my names were all in all the commits my entire team was cheering me on and ramping me up the entire time. And it, again, it goes to sometimes we can figure it, like we're gonna work on a feature.
I don't want to push it up to GitHub until it's super clean and has all my comments and dummy code like removed because I don't want people to judge me. On my process. I want people to judge me on how smart I am or how the thing works. But it's the perverse, like you want to put yourself out there earlier because the tribe will continue to raise the tides.
Sorry. My knowledge is going to be broken, but the rising tide raises all boats. So like everybody gets to benefit from this learning process that you get. Oh,
Rizel: my God, I never, I've never seen a company do that, but I really liked that [00:22:00] as an option, put your PR out, people know exactly what you're doing and why, which is sounds scary because like you said, like Kevin dummy code in there, like sometimes my console logs are a little crazy off, but I really liked that option.
Cause it just helps give more insight. It moves you along so much faster.
bdougie: So that wraps up the conversation with Brazil. If you're listening to this in the browser, or you listen to your podcast there, check out the description of the show notes for Russell's Twitter candle black girl bites, and I highly recommend you follow her account following what she's going to be doing.
I am looking forward to seeing some of the stuff she puts out as far as content and teaching new developers, how to use GitHub as well as how to do some general react stuff and JavaScript stuff. She's got a lot of interests and I'm hoping to be a good mentor to her while she's a good help employee.
If you have any interest in guesting on the show, hit me up twitter.com/ . I'm always happy to have new developers, existing developers, folks that have been any entry for a years, or maybe just started last year. And [00:23:00] hearing stories always put me in a place of understanding that it's attainable.
Like I can do this. And that's the hope for this podcast. See you the next one.